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Is spin terminal?

Tony

School Boy/Girl Cricketer
With the end of Warnie, Murali near the end and reverse swing happening after 40 overs is spin bowling on its death bed? Besides the pre tea maidens when there is a partnership why wouldnt you just bowl bloks who can produce those balls which Pathan and Sharma bowled yesterday to get the wickets?

Or do we give Kumble the new ball to slide it on to the bat and get the shine off it.
 

silentstriker

The Wheel is Forever
No. Spin is not terminal. Maybe in certain countries, but you'd have to be pretty brave to go into Mumbai without a spinner.
 

chaminda_00

Hall of Fame Member
Do reckon the lack of quality fast bowlers coming through from most countries will keep spin bowling alive. The funny thing is South Africa have always had problems producing decent spinners and now they have a decent one and other countries are struggling to find one.

Reckon we are about to go through a similar period like the 80s in 2010s though. No real great spinners, just some decent ones.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Spin will always be neccessary, and hopefully therefore produced in quality, at more grounds than not in India and Sri Lanka. Already mentioned by ss is Mumbai, Chennai is another that comes immediately to mind, and I'm sure there are many other grounds around India that routinely produce turning surfaces. I'm also fairly confident turners could be produced to order at grounds which tend to produce flatter surfaces too.

However, quality spinners have always been rare in Australia; not for a long time has fingerspin been a viable option (Mallett's the only decent fingerspinner since covered wickets, and even he was only successful for 20-odd Tests), and wristspin is an incredibly difficult thing to bowl to the requistite standards of accuracy, and to expect someone else immediately after a Warne would be expecting a fair bit (not impossible Rob, but expecting a fair bit).

Equally, there's never been a quality wristspinner in England's history, SF Barnes aside, and he was a freak. Fingerspin used to be a highly viable option over here in the days of uncovered wickets, but hasn't been since they were covered, because most of the grounds in this country (including all the Test ones) don't tend to produce turning surfaces. Fingerspin is rarely a viable option over here.

South Africa and New Zealand, meanwhile, have never produced any wristspinners of real note since the 1910s, and even only the odd particularly good fingerspinner (Tayfield, Vettori).

So spin should not be a worldwide phenomena for a fair while, at least not to offer any threat. It hasn't been since the 1960s and it's really remarkable that in the 1990s and most of the 2000s there were two wristspinners of the highest quality and one other who improved greatly as the latter decade wore on (Kumble). That sort of thing is going to be rare, and we've sort of grown used to it, and it's probably going to take a fair few years to re-adjust expectations, and realise spin of the highest quality is actually an exception, not a rule.
 

Tony

School Boy/Girl Cricketer
Its an exception rather than the rule all right, yep we have been spoilt indeed.

As far as Australia is concerned maybe its time to blood a new spinner and forget both Hogg and MacGill. If Haddin comes into the side at 7, Lee Johnson and Clarke are quite capable at 8,9,10 so get a youngster in and he can work on his batting as well.

With Symonds and Clarke in there for the pre lunch and tea maidens one of the South Aussies, Cullen or Bailey should be taken on tour to Pakistan.
 

NUFAN

Y no Afghanistan flag
Its an exception rather than the rule all right, yep we have been spoilt indeed.

As far as Australia is concerned maybe its time to blood a new spinner and forget both Hogg and MacGill. If Haddin comes into the side at 7, Lee Johnson and Clarke are quite capable at 8,9,10 so get a youngster in and he can work on his batting as well.

With Symonds and Clarke in there for the pre lunch and tea maidens one of the South Aussies, Cullen or Bailey should be taken on tour to Pakistan.

I just can't understand why people mention Bailey apart from the fact he has a Cricket Australia Contract. He just simply doesn't deserve it.

I don't mind Dan Cullen being given another opportunity though.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
As far as Australia is concerned maybe its time to blood a new spinner and forget both Hogg and MacGill.
Why not just forget about spin until someone who doesn't so far look completely hopeless comes along?

Or just pick MacGill and let him continue to be shown-up to be average. :D
 

Migara

Cricketer Of The Year
MacGill will do well against almost all the countries bar India and Sri Lanka. When bowling to the rest it is all about producing that good ball to get the batsman. But when bowling to latter lwo, it's about not giving that boundry ball.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Bosanquet certainly wasn't a top-quality spinner, he just won 2 Test-matches. Atherton was a part-timer who took 4 Test wickets. Wardle was principally a fingerspinner. Wright was short of the highest class.

As for Tich Freeman, though, was completely unaware he was in any way a wristspinner. Are you serious?
 

SJS

Hall of Fame Member
As for Tich Freeman, though, was completely unaware he was in any way a wristspinner. Are you serious?
That doesn't change facts Richard.

Tich Freeman was one of the greatest slow bowlers the game has ever seen (inspite of short and decent but unspectacular test career) and he was a leg break googly bowler who also possessed a lovely top spinner.
 

bond21

Banned
MacGill is 100x better than Hogg, plain and simple.

He needs to get his act together and do whatever he needs to do to get fit and play again.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
That doesn't change facts Richard.
Eh? When did I say it did?
Tich Freeman was one of the greatest slow bowlers the game has ever seen (inspite of short and decent but unspectacular test career) and he was a leg break googly bowler who also possessed a lovely top spinner.
How odd that he didn't play more at the top level, then. :huh:
 

Julian87

State Captain
Why not just forget about spin until someone who doesn't so far look completely hopeless comes along?

Or just pick MacGill and let him continue to be shown-up to be average. :D
MacGill is better than any spin option England have had since Underwood.

I think four quicks should be picked until MacGill is fit because Hogg is rubbis. But considering that is the only test Australia have lost in the past 18 matches, they're not going to leave a spinner out any time soon.

MacGill and McGain are the only real options IMO. Cullen isn't an option in my books because he won't offer much more than Symonds and Clarke.

I'd bite the bullett and give McGain a go.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
MacGill is better than any spin option England have had since Underwood.
Well, better than anyone since covered pitches more like. I'll give you that on a non-turner MacGill > any English fingerspinner (or any fingerspinner full-stop) from 1973 onwards (Underwood included). But Underwood, Emburey, Croft, Edmunds, Giles and MSP > MacGill on a turner, easily. Take wickets without gifting the runs in between.
 

Julian87

State Captain
Well, better than anyone since covered pitches more like. I'll give you that on a non-turner MacGill > any English fingerspinner (or any fingerspinner full-stop) from 1973 onwards (Underwood included). But Underwood, Emburey, Croft, Edmunds, Giles and MSP > MacGill on a turner, easily. Take wickets without gifting the runs in between.
I will give you Emburey, but you're going bonkers with the other names on that list. Just compare the records, MacGill, throughout his career has been world class and would have been the number one spinner in all nations but Australia, Sri Lanka and possibly India.
 

river end

School Boy/Girl Cricketer
I will give you Emburey, but you're going bonkers with the other names on that list. Just compare the records, MacGill, throughout his career has been world class and would have been the number one spinner in all nations but Australia, Sri Lanka and possibly India.
People will point to MacGill's record, but realistically he has in effect ridden on the back of the success of the Australian team - the work done by other more permanent members. When he came in to fill a gap left by Warne or for whatever reason etc.. the opposition were probably already demoralised.

The problem with MacGill is, he isn't a team bowler. He has even admitted himself that he solely tries to take wickets with pretty much every ball without regards to anything else.
You just can't afford that with spinners these days. That might have been alright in the 50s or 60s but in this modern era which is beneficial to batsmen, the batsmen will take on the spinners more, and importantly, get away with it. Bowling loose balls consistently nowadays just isn't acceptable.

There will be times when the tide needs to be stemmed for Australia and I can't for the life of me seeing him being able to do that. For every 5/50 figures he takes from now on I can see 1/145, 2/110 and 0/90 also - at a poor economy rate.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
I will give you Emburey, but you're going bonkers with the other names on that list. Just compare the records, MacGill, throughout his career has been world class and would have been the number one spinner in all nations but Australia, Sri Lanka and possibly India.
Compare their records on turning pitches - ie, what I actually said, not what you seem to want me to have said. All the bowlers I named would are far better on turning surfaces than MacGill has ever been. I'd have MacGill as a front-liner above all of them if the pitch offered nothing, but never for a second would I contemplate it if the pitch offered the fingerspinners turn.

If Giles\Edmunds\etc. and MacGill had been Indian - ie, had been typically playing on turning surfaces at home - they'd all outperform him any day of most weeks.
 

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