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srbhkshk

International Captain
Why assume randomness when you can assume intelligence? :p
Nah, I was just a little pissed, he comes here, posts a couple things and established members are all out with knives ready to laugh at him. Everyone does this stat-whoring when they want to show their guy as better, why pretend you are above it.
 

honestbharani

Whatever it takes!!!
I am not above it. I am arguing his side here, if you read my earlier post. But if you read the other arguments of PFK recently here, you would see why I would question the randomness of the time he chose.
 

ankitj

Hall of Fame Member
One batsman helped another is a dumb argument. When it comes to test batting each man is on his own and has a rather simple job: don't get out and score runs. What other guy is doing doesn't make much difference.

Bowling together though is a thing because bowlers can take breathers if they have a good bowling team. Batting in ODIs together is also a thing because if your partner scores at brisk pace you don't feel pressure of scoring rates.

I don't see any such thing happening with test batting.
 
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trundler

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One batsman helped another is a dumb argument. When it comes to test batting each man is on his own and has a rather simple job: don't get out and score runs. What other guy is doing doesn't make much difference.

Bowling together though is a thing because bowlers can take breathers if they have a good bowling team. Batting in ODIs together is also a thing because if your partner scores at brisk pace you don't feel pressure of scoring rates.

I don't see any such thing happening with test batting.
Wearing out bowlers, releasing pressure, blunting the new ball etc.

Ftr I think Dravid over Tendulkar is silly. It's classic slower = better thinking which isn't always true. Dravid is known as a master technician because he was a grinder but Tendulkar was probably better because he was better at dealing with bounce and spin and had more gears.
 

stephen

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Yeah Sachin was obviously better to anyone who actually watched both play. Dravid was a great batsman mind you, and is one of only two realistic choices for number 3 in an Indian all time side but Sachin was a step up. Not a large step, just a step large enough to trip you because you don't see it.
 

TheJediBrah

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Ponting was miserable in India throughout his prime and only managed to redeem himself there towards the end while his output was tailing off everywhere else. 14 Tests in India for a return of 26. You can't be so awful against one of the major opponents of your generation on their turf and be considered in the same bracket as any of Waugh, Tendulkar, Lara, or Kallis.
This is just plain wrong. I've said this plenty of times on here already, but Ponting barely played in India during his prime. Having followed his whole career live I'd consider his prime years to be 2001 (post Ashes) to ~2008, a period of time during which he averaged 70. He was clearly not the same player before (averaged 35) then and the taper off well and truly started around 2008 (averaged 37 after 2008).

He played 1 match in India during those 7-8 years and it was on a lottery of a dustbowl, the one where Michael Clarke took 6/9. Not saying this explains why his record in India is so poor, it's still bad for a specialist batsman, but for some reason people always overlook the fact that of his 14 Tests in India, only 1 was during his ATG batting phase.
 

TheJediBrah

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Ftr I'm not arguing for Ponting v anyone, or commenting on any comparisons being made. Just really specifically pointing out that the "Ponting in India" stats could be misleading and require qualification. It's not like he was going around averaging 70 everywhere, then popped into India and averaged 20, then left and started averaging 70 again, which is what is often implied.
 

anil1405

International Captain
Couple of things worth clarifying.

Dravid did NOT make Sachin a better player.
I said Dravid made Sachin’s life easy, and this has nothing to take away from what Sachin has achieved but more to do with the impact Dravid has had on the team.

If ever there was an unpopular or a minority opinion then this is the one for sure.

In terms of the impact Dravid had for the test team, it has been on par with Sachin. And the fact that he did all the dirty work that was needed early on in the innings (and still went on to score 10k runs) makes me rate him 5% higher than Sachin. Dravid had a bigger role to play in converting those defeats into draws/victories for the team.

Sure, Sachin was more talented and his ability to take on the quality attack and dismantle them was on a different level. I cannot imagine any other Indian player playing that 114 at Perth so early in his career and many other knocks that he played were amazing. Dravid is miles behind Sachin in this aspect. Sachin, for me, overall as a cricketer is on a different level but looking at test cricket alone Dravid’s impact on the team has been better by a very small margin.

It is easy to point out Dravid’s numbers in South Africa and Australia and come to a conclusion that he wasn’t good enough. While Sachin fascinated cricket fans with his knocks in Sydney and Perth very early in his career, Dravid was instrumental in helping India sniff victory for the first time ever in South Africa very early in his career too. Same goes with Australia, Dravid made it possible for India to secure its first test win in Australia after ages.

For those who are fascinated about averages alone, I would love to see how much Sachin averaged in Australia while McGrath (or for that matter even Warne) was playing.
 
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harsh.ag

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
It was a better Indian team, that's why they won those games. Sachin and Dravid were just a part of that. If Dravid had been there in the early 90s along with Sachin, it's not like India would have started winning those series they lost. Venkatesh Prasad was the second choice pacer ffs.
 

Flem274*

123/5
dravid was noticeably better on more seam friendly decks, and had the better game for them.

his madman english series and the 2001 nz series on These Are The Most Unfair Pitches Ever I Am Indian And Ganguly I Shouldn't Be Punished For Chasing Wide Balls Or Being Bad Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah are the proof in the pudding.

in other conditions, sachin was the better horse for the course.
 

anil1405

International Captain
It was a better Indian team, that's why they won those games. Sachin and Dravid were just a part of that. If Dravid had been there in the early 90s along with Sachin, it's not like India would have started winning those series they lost. Venkatesh Prasad was the second choice pacer ffs.
For sure which makes me want to look at the impact Dravid and Sachin had on Indian victories and under fighting situations from 1996-2011. Will dig up those performances when I can.
 

honestbharani

Whatever it takes!!!
Yeah, disagree with ankit that batsmen can't help each other in tests. The degree and level may vary but cricket is always a team game and everyone in the team can help each other by their performances and nothing happens in silos.

Have already addressed the Dravid-Tendulkar bit but I will add this. A good player emerging always helps the already established great in any side. It does not really take away any of the others' achievements though. Quite a lot of Sachin's great knocks post Dravid's debut happened when Dravid failed, for instance. So I really don't think it should be that big of a factor in how you rate a player. But to each his own.
 

Arachnodouche

International Captain
It was a better Indian team, that's why they won those games. Sachin and Dravid were just a part of that. If Dravid had been there in the early 90s along with Sachin, it's not like India would have started winning those series they lost. Venkatesh Prasad was the second choice pacer ffs.
Prasad for a very brief period at the start wasn't half bad, you know. Turned out to be a false dawn but for a while everyone thought we finally had a decent seam bowling pair.
 

stephen

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Partnerships are the key to building an innings. Of course having other ATG batsmen in your team helps you do better. It's nonsense to suggest otherwise.

Probably enhances Flower's record tbh.
 

OverratedSanity

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dravid was noticeably better on more seam friendly decks, and had the better game for them.

his madman english series and the 2001 nz series on These Are The Most Unfair Pitches Ever I Am Indian And Ganguly I Shouldn't Be Punished For Chasing Wide Balls Or Being Bad Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah are the proof in the pudding.

in other conditions, sachin was the better horse for the course.
If you actually watched the matches back then (which I doubt) , you'd remember that the nz media whined about the pitches just as much as India's did. Stephen Fleming criticized the pitches just as much as Ganguly did. Stop peddling myths like the dishonest Aussies. Personally I think they were all morons because the pitches made for exciting cricket.

Also more to the point of the thread, Dravid made runs in some really difficult conditions/bad pitches more often than even most ATG batsmen did, so while there are holes in his overall record, he was capable of innings many weren't and I've always rated him highly partly because of that.
 

Flem274*

123/5
If you actually watched the matches back then (which I doubt) , you'd remember that the nz media whined about the pitches just as much as India's did. Stephen Fleming criticized the pitches just as much as Ganguly did. Stop peddling myths like the dishonest Aussies. Personally I think they were all morons because the pitches made for exciting cricket.

Also more to the point of the thread, Dravid made runs in some really difficult conditions/bad pitches more often than even most ATG batsmen did, so while there are holes in his overall record, he was capable of innings many weren't and I've always rated him highly partly because of that.
it was one of my formative cricket watching experiences alongside the nz tour of aus just before. the nz media are weaklings who probably saw the disappearance of the bcci dollar and panicked. the nzherald are low key ccp apologists ffs. fleming was probably just mad india had found a decent debutant bowler in zaheer and wanted the difference between india and bond et al exacerbated.

that series was the day i learned that indian side were petulant crybabies lacking the bottle for a challenge.

agreed on dravid, the guy was so valuable and comparisons to tendulkar/lara/ponting always undersell him because he batted slowly. if dravid batted a little faster and was more ruthless on roads he'd be mentioned as their equal so it's kinda frustrating he's marked down given he's better than all of those three in challenging circumstances.
 

vcs

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When are NZ touring us next? Looking forward to some easy wins, they haven't won a Test here in my lifetime.
 

Pap Finn Keighl

International Debutant
For those who are fascinated about averages alone, I would love to see how much Sachin averaged in Australia while McGrath (or for that matter even Warne) was playing.
Against Mcgrath in Australia
Sachin 46.33
Dravid 14.5

Against Warne in Australia
Sachin 56.12
Dravid 14.5

Dravid's stats against ATG bowlers are poor in comparison with other great bats.

Btw, Whatever Sachin achieved in international arena was expected from him long before Dravid debuted.
 

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