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A Pre-War Line-up

neville cardus

International Debutant
I've said it a thousand times, batting isn't about looking good, expressing talent, or being classy.
Again, that isn't the point that I was making. I was saying that the reason why the Golden Age was the most flair-filled in cricket history was because the pitches weren't so bad as you seem to believe. Your opinion of the value of flair really doesn't matter here.

No, it means I felt the need to respond to every point made.
Great, but, if so, you responded to it poorly.

15 wickets in 16 games isn't impressive in any way, and I'd call it quite poor.
Because you fail to look at it in context. He was surrounded for much of his Test-bowling prime by some of the greatest wrist-spinners ever to fizz a leggie. Nourse's opportunities for wicket-taking were decidedly few.

A good average, yes, but Nourse's bowling career was nothing more than part-time material.
Odd, then, that he was given the new ball in this series.

Pegler had one good series, the 1912 Triangular Series involving Australia, England and South Africa.
Which is alarmingly near the 1910/11 rubber under discussion.

Aside from that he was decidedly mediocre.
I disagree, but that's irrelevant to the matter at hand.

Credit must be given, and Trumper batted well. To score 214* at such a quick rate is a top notch effort, but there were over 1600 runs scored in the Test, and seven bowlers used during that innings. Runs weren't hard to come by.
Perhaps they weren't hard to come by for Trumper, but no other Australian really cashed in. Macartney did nothing, Hill failed once and then joined Bardsley and Kelleway in failing to push on beyond fifty, and Armstrong got two starts. Trumper scored over thirty per cent of Australia's runs in that match, and 46 per cent of the first-innings total.

It says a great deal. But if the pitches were so flat in Australia, enough for you to discredit Gunn's acheivements there
No need to resort to that. I did not discredit them.

then why do you not call into question Trumper's record at home, where he averaged 45 and scored 6 of his 8 Test centuries?
Why do you think? I am arguing for him, remember? It is your job to refute me.

One could call him a flat track bully ;)
One would be wrong.
 
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neville cardus

International Debutant
If you'll take some time to read what I'm saying
I could ask the same of you.

you'll realise I've said that Trumper's career was greater, as he played 48 games to Gunn's 11. However, during those 11, I beleive Gunn was a much better performer.
Which is in what way different from what I have said?

I disagree because I have a different method of evaluating how good a batsman was, and most cricket writers don't share the same method. Nationality doesn't matter with the bias I am talking about.
Okay. Explain this bias that you are talking about and which only you seem able to discern.

Numerous ones
That's not good enough. I asked which ones you had read, not how many.

It is noteworthy that you have failed to explain how these match reports are any less biased than the other sources on which scholars of the game like Archie rely.

and as with above, I dislike reading things written by those who evalutate with different methods.
Which is a rather narrow, self-suiting means of evaluation.
 

Goughy

Hall of Fame Member
What I find hard to come to terms with in ranking Gunn ahead of Trumper, is taking aside all the stats out of the equation, how can a guy that played only 11 Tests in the period be classed as better than the darling of the 'Golden Age'?

If Gunn was as good as claimed (and I certainly dont think he was a bad player, especially as he was so highly thought off by Larwood) why wasnt he seleceted more often for England?

Even wasnt even selected in the squad for his best series, the 1907-8 Ashes.

I find it hard to believe that a great County cricketer but not a regular England could be ranked ahead of Trumper.

As Gunn wasnt an England fixture, does that mean England had a plentiful supply of better-than-Trumper batsmen?
 

neville cardus

International Debutant
I can not really believe there is a debate brewing as to whether George Gunn was a superior exponent of the art of batting than old Vic'. The flaws in Perm's argument have already been superbly exposed by Neville Cardus, Goughy and Archie, but may I be permitted to quote from an outstanding contemporary review of Trumper's performances on the 1902 Ashes tour, written by Sydney Pardon and taken from the 1903 edition of Wisden?
"Trumper stood alone among the batsmen of the season, not only far surpassing his own colleagues, but also putting into the shade everyone who played for England. In the course of the tour he obtained, despite the wet weather, 2570 runs, thus easily beating Darling's 1941 in the glorious summer of 1899, which up to this year was a record aggregate for any colonial batsman touring this country. Pages might be written about Trumper's batting without exhausting the subject. Having regard to the character of the season, with its many wet days and soft wickets, it is safe to say that no one - not even Ranjitsinhji - has been at once so brilliant and so consistent since W. G. Grace was at his best. Trumper seemed independent of varying conditions, being able to play just as dazzling a game after a night's rain as when the wickets were hard and true. All bowling came alike to him and on many occasions, notably in the Test matches at Sheffield and Manchester and the first of the two games with the M.C.C. at Lord's, he reduced our best bowlers for the time being to the level of the village green. They were simply incapable of checking his extraordinary hitting. Only a combination of wonderful eye and supreme confidence could have rendered such pulling as his at all possible. The way in which he took good length balls off the middle stump and sent them round to the boundary had to be seen to be believed. Though this exceptional faculty, however, was one of the main sources of his strength on soft wickets, he was far indeed from being dependent on unorthodox strokes. His cutting and off-driving approached perfection and he did everything with such an easy grace of style that his batting was always a delight to the eye. Risking so much, he plays what I would call a young man's game, lightning quickness of eye and hand being essential to his success, and for this reason I should not expect him after twenty years or more of first-class cricket to rival such batsmen as Shrewsbury, A.P. Lucas and W.L. Murdoch, but for the moment he is unapproachable. He was not in the smallest degree spoilt by this triumphs, bearing himself just as modestly and playing the game as sternly at the end of a long tour as at its beginning."
Could anyone seriously imagine the esteemed Nottinghamshire batsman being spoken of in such revered terms?
It's difficult to find any flaws in that judgment -- a very good one in this instance because it does not dabble so much in the awe-inspiring aesthetic genius and flair on which Perm pours his numerically-blinkered scorn. Thanks.
 

neville cardus

International Debutant
Read something similar not long ago by AE Knight in The Joy of Cricket (from The complete Cricketer 1906)
"Perchance the statistical expert will yet have many pages to fill with the the first-class records of Victor Trumper. Probably not, for such an eye and wrist, such lightning celerity, such risk is for youth alone."
Lovely.
 

archie mac

International Coach
I have a lot of respect for Perm and his posting, but I would have a lot more if he would concede he has it wrong in this case:)
 

Perm

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
I'm not going to concede defeat, but I'm going to finish arguing. I've put my point across, and I see no point in continuing to go back and forth in the multi-quote style battles, which can get quite tiresome. It's clear we disagree, and aren't going to convince each other. If neville cardus feels as though he has 'won', then I'm not going to stop him feeling that way, but I'll simply say it's not the case. Well played.

BTW archie, still don't rate Trumper or Hill :ph34r:
 

archie mac

International Coach
Anyway now that Perm has conceded defeat:p

I would like to say some of the articles on here have made for great reading:)
 

neville cardus

International Debutant
Yeah it's great. Might scan the whole piece in sometime today.
Please do. Knight is responsible for one of my favourite quotes: "In the every breath of its humanity, its sweet simplicities, its open-air fragrance and charm, the game of cricket appeals to nearly all men."
 

Perm

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Just seeking some clarification upon something I've been musing about, in the supposedly bat-friendly 'Golden Era' of cricket, why was Trumper's average pretty ordinary?
 

neville cardus

International Debutant
Just seeking some clarification upon something I've been musing about, in the supposedly bat-friendly 'Golden Era' of cricket, why was Trumper's average pretty ordinary?
He played on past his prime and was probably caught on a number more stickies than most.
 

Michaelf7777777

International Debutant
AWTA and also he would quite often gave his wicket away on easier pitches after getting a hundred in order to give his teammates a go.
 

pasag

RTDAS
He played on past his prime and was probably caught on a number more stickies than most.
About the stickies, I just came across your namesake on Trumper and stickies who quotes the 'restrained' MCC's Cricket Scores and Biographies regarding Trumper's 1902 English season:

'On "sticky" wickets he hit with freedom, whilst everybody else were puddling about the crease, unable to make headway and content if they could keep up their wickets.'
 

neville cardus

International Debutant
Yes, but that refers solely to Trumper's 1902 season, in which he was just invincible. Not since W.G. had a batsman carried all before him on wickets tailor-made for bowling.

It would be interesting to see how he did on gluepots before and after 1902.
 

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