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Should Australis A be granted test status?
- Thread starter Deja moo
- Start date
Top_Cat
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No it's just you. Whenever anything weird happens in your life, remember IT'S JUST YOU.
Actually, it's a problem with Debian Linux I have. It don't like me and I don't like it!
SERIOUSLY, I think my keys were mapped to a Cyrillic keyboard's so some characters have been a little weird. On the plus side, apparently my Russian has never been better.
That's mitigated against by the fact that If Pollock were part of a great attack, there'd be less wickets to go around.
McGrath. In my humble opinion, one of the greatest all-wicket bowlers of all time.
Mr Mxyzptlk
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True, but it's still a valid assumption.Top_Cat said:
Top_Cat
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Absolutely if that's what he was in the side for. If I had him in the side with some young quicks, I'd pick him in a McGrath-like role and have him just putting the ball on the spot, moving it a little either way and let the other guys blast some batsmen out. Because he's so good, I'd look upon the rest of the attack in a way that "even if all the others fail, at least there'll be ONE bowler who's bowling well."
Even when he was quick (and he WAS very quick early on), because of his accuracy, I'd still want him bowling that immaculate line. Let others blast batsmen out, let bowlers as good as him do what is toughest to do. It stands to reason that you want your best players doing that which requires greater ability and more skill, no? Malcom Marshall did that when required and Joel Garner was also superb at that sort of thing. In fact, the thing which typifies the great WI bowlers more than their ability to blast batsmen out (in my view) was their ability to bowl a good line and length. That's what suffocated batsmen more than the good deliveries they bowled. That immense pressure which is brought about by tight bowling with the occasional decent delivery thrown in is what Test cricket is all about and is what wins you Tests. Pollock and McGrath do this superbly.
I'd still pick McGrath, though.
royGilchrist
State 12th Man
Now my other question...who was the better all rounder...Gary Sobers or Derek Pringle?
Eclipse
International Debutant
How so?? Surley the fact that his combined National league and FC runs this session are more than anyone else must count for somthing.marc71178 said:
I always though runs were the most importaint thing as far as batsman were concerned. It's not like he is boring or anything ether his FC strike rate this season is 69.34
Maybe there have been better maybe some players have played more vital innings etc.. but just by looking at the stats I dont see how you could say my comment was a load of tripe??
He probably has not been the best but he is in the ballpark a little to close to be a load of tripe.
Last edited:
Bazza
International 12th Man
Looks like I've missed alot. Lets start with the major debate.
Shaun Pollock IMO is a truly world class bowling allrounder. One of the very best. If you look at his stats he has superb averages and economy rates and useful strike rates (we know it's down a bit on some - his success comes from patience, consistency, pressure, etc).
I must have misread but at the top of this page I thought Neil called Pollock a mediocre medium pacer, and compared him to Ricky Clarke - surely the greatest insult he's ever received! You just can't argue with a man of 29 who has heading on for 600 international wickets at an average of 21 plus 2500 test runs at 33 including a couple of tons and 2000 OD runs at 24 with a very healthy SR.
I think his batting is probably a bit underrated. It's devastating to have him coming in at number 8 and he would walk into any side including Australia, I don't care what anyone says. Imagine - you get rid of Kirsten, Gibbs, Kallis, Cullinan, Boucher, Klusener et al and you still have to get through Pollock!
Pollock has been one of the clear top three bowlers in the world over the last 3-4 years alongside McGrath and Murali, but the key difference is he can bat and has also captained his side - the second best in the world behind 'that lot'.
IMO one of the greatest all round talents the modern game has seen, and surely the best all rounder since the days of Botham, Hadlee, Dev, etc. (Cue Marc with definition of 'proper' all rounder!):
TESTS
70 97 23 2483 111 33.55 50.08 2 11 51 0
2558 800 5835 285 20.47 7-87 14 1 53.8 2.28
ONE-DAY INTERNATIONALS
195 127 46 1959 75 24.18 83.89 0 7 79 0
1704.1 180 6411 278 23.06 6-35 10 4 36.7 3.76
McGrath, yes he is one of the best bowlers of all time. 400 test wickets aren't easy to come by, and he is one of the reasons Australia have been untouchable for the last few years.
Overall his 700 international wickets have cost a shade under 22 and he has very impressive stats. Also a top economy and average (though not quite as good as Pollock), and a better strike rate.
McGrath is the epitomy of consistency and quality, but I feel Pollock is unfairly rated below him, and overall I think that Shaun would just be my choice, simply because his numbers are fractionally better and he has played in a weaker side (eg it's easy to bowl when you have 500 on the board! :P). Also it isn't possible to consider a bowler without thinking about their batting, fielding and captaincy potential.
We all know McGrath would walk into any side and he definitely deserves the title 'great', but I am going to dip for Pollock, who if he keeps his current rate up will have matched McGrath's record by the time he reaches Pigeon's age, except he'll have about 3000 more runs! (in tests anyway):
TESTS
93 104 36 450 39 6.61 39.40 0 0 29 0
3673.5 1098 9214 425 21.68 8-38 23 3 51.8 2.50
ONE-DAY INTERNATIONALS
185 50 27 94 11 4.08 49.47 0 0 23 0
1630.4 218 6356 284 22.38 7-15 8 6 34.4 3.89
I'll be fair to Jaques. 731 runs at 60 is a good effort. He's not really an overseas star either (5th on the most FC runs list behind Jon Lewis, Cox, Di Venuto and Koenig).
He's also got 364 at 45 with a SR of 91 in the National League so an impressive season thus far.
Finally the whole Academy/Bangladesh thing, I thought Bangladesh fought fairly well and they will continue to improve. I think we just have to accept they will still be whipping boys or a couple of years and stop expecting them to overnight become (even a little bit) competitive.
I think there are signs (from a couple of the young players) that the talent is there and will continue to be - they just need a good bit of structuring, development, management, etc and they could be alright.
Well that's a long enough post for now....
Shaun Pollock IMO is a truly world class bowling allrounder. One of the very best. If you look at his stats he has superb averages and economy rates and useful strike rates (we know it's down a bit on some - his success comes from patience, consistency, pressure, etc).
I must have misread but at the top of this page I thought Neil called Pollock a mediocre medium pacer, and compared him to Ricky Clarke - surely the greatest insult he's ever received! You just can't argue with a man of 29 who has heading on for 600 international wickets at an average of 21 plus 2500 test runs at 33 including a couple of tons and 2000 OD runs at 24 with a very healthy SR.
I think his batting is probably a bit underrated. It's devastating to have him coming in at number 8 and he would walk into any side including Australia, I don't care what anyone says. Imagine - you get rid of Kirsten, Gibbs, Kallis, Cullinan, Boucher, Klusener et al and you still have to get through Pollock!
Pollock has been one of the clear top three bowlers in the world over the last 3-4 years alongside McGrath and Murali, but the key difference is he can bat and has also captained his side - the second best in the world behind 'that lot'.
IMO one of the greatest all round talents the modern game has seen, and surely the best all rounder since the days of Botham, Hadlee, Dev, etc. (Cue Marc with definition of 'proper' all rounder!):
TESTS
70 97 23 2483 111 33.55 50.08 2 11 51 0
2558 800 5835 285 20.47 7-87 14 1 53.8 2.28
ONE-DAY INTERNATIONALS
195 127 46 1959 75 24.18 83.89 0 7 79 0
1704.1 180 6411 278 23.06 6-35 10 4 36.7 3.76
McGrath, yes he is one of the best bowlers of all time. 400 test wickets aren't easy to come by, and he is one of the reasons Australia have been untouchable for the last few years.
Overall his 700 international wickets have cost a shade under 22 and he has very impressive stats. Also a top economy and average (though not quite as good as Pollock), and a better strike rate.
McGrath is the epitomy of consistency and quality, but I feel Pollock is unfairly rated below him, and overall I think that Shaun would just be my choice, simply because his numbers are fractionally better and he has played in a weaker side (eg it's easy to bowl when you have 500 on the board! :P). Also it isn't possible to consider a bowler without thinking about their batting, fielding and captaincy potential.
We all know McGrath would walk into any side and he definitely deserves the title 'great', but I am going to dip for Pollock, who if he keeps his current rate up will have matched McGrath's record by the time he reaches Pigeon's age, except he'll have about 3000 more runs! (in tests anyway):
TESTS
93 104 36 450 39 6.61 39.40 0 0 29 0
3673.5 1098 9214 425 21.68 8-38 23 3 51.8 2.50
ONE-DAY INTERNATIONALS
185 50 27 94 11 4.08 49.47 0 0 23 0
1630.4 218 6356 284 22.38 7-15 8 6 34.4 3.89
I'll be fair to Jaques. 731 runs at 60 is a good effort. He's not really an overseas star either (5th on the most FC runs list behind Jon Lewis, Cox, Di Venuto and Koenig).
He's also got 364 at 45 with a SR of 91 in the National League so an impressive season thus far.
Finally the whole Academy/Bangladesh thing, I thought Bangladesh fought fairly well and they will continue to improve. I think we just have to accept they will still be whipping boys or a couple of years and stop expecting them to overnight become (even a little bit) competitive.
I think there are signs (from a couple of the young players) that the talent is there and will continue to be - they just need a good bit of structuring, development, management, etc and they could be alright.
Well that's a long enough post for now....
Neil Pickup
Cricket Web Moderator
Bazza, I was responding to the comment that Pollock was "only a mediocre medium pacer" - Rikki Clarke is a mediocre medium pacer and Pollock definitely isn't (i.e. <>) Rikki Clarke.
I'd take McGrath over Pollock - just.
Whilst Phil Jaques has been excellent this season I don't think that he's been the best in the championship. His runs totals have been swelled by one really, really hot patch, though it seems that he's coming back into form again.
I'd have to go with Jon Lewis at the moment as he's been insanely consistent in a dismal batting line-up.
It seems like Whatmore is having an impact in Bangladesh already - and, as we all know that Australian First Class cricket is of such a high standard, anyone playing it must be brilliant so it's an excellent achievement for the Tigers to win :saint:
I'd take McGrath over Pollock - just.
Whilst Phil Jaques has been excellent this season I don't think that he's been the best in the championship. His runs totals have been swelled by one really, really hot patch, though it seems that he's coming back into form again.
I'd have to go with Jon Lewis at the moment as he's been insanely consistent in a dismal batting line-up.
It seems like Whatmore is having an impact in Bangladesh already - and, as we all know that Australian First Class cricket is of such a high standard, anyone playing it must be brilliant so it's an excellent achievement for the Tigers to win :saint:
royGilchrist
State 12th Man
Marc,
Have not been able to reply in ameaningful way to our Pollock/McGrath argument, been busy planning a big trip. Will do so in a while.
Just to reiterate, based on the recent years' performances McGrath seems superlative, and would have thought obvious for any captain to pick him. Based on their overall careers, it will be a much tougher choice, but it will probably still be McGrath.
As for the Pollock is a mediocre bowler, I exagerrated there a bit. Obviously Pollock has been a class bowler and even in the latter part of his career he is decent, especailly with the dearth of quality fast bowlers in the world, he still rates highly.
Have not been able to reply in ameaningful way to our Pollock/McGrath argument, been busy planning a big trip. Will do so in a while.
Just to reiterate, based on the recent years' performances McGrath seems superlative, and would have thought obvious for any captain to pick him. Based on their overall careers, it will be a much tougher choice, but it will probably still be McGrath.
As for the Pollock is a mediocre bowler, I exagerrated there a bit. Obviously Pollock has been a class bowler and even in the latter part of his career he is decent, especailly with the dearth of quality fast bowlers in the world, he still rates highly.
Prince EWS
Global Moderator
Flintoff is definately a TOP allrounder. In fact, I cant think of anyone better.
Except Craig White of course........
Nah even I admit that Flintoff is better than White.
But back to Australia's allrounder problem. I really think the answer is Bichel. He has been in very good form with the bat and is AUSTRALIA'S fourth fast bowler.
Except Craig White of course........
Nah even I admit that Flintoff is better than White.
But back to Australia's allrounder problem. I really think the answer is Bichel. He has been in very good form with the bat and is AUSTRALIA'S fourth fast bowler.
Prince EWS
Global Moderator
Pollock/McGrath
In one-dayers I would pick Pollock but in tests I'de pick McGrath. But I dont see this problem ever arrising becuase even if they did have a world XI (for reasons I couldnt think of..:rolleyes, they would both definately be n the team. Sorry if this has been mentioned before why are trying to choose, but I had not read any at all and there were 11 pages lol.
In one-dayers I would pick Pollock but in tests I'de pick McGrath. But I dont see this problem ever arrising becuase even if they did have a world XI (for reasons I couldnt think of..:rolleyes
, they would both definately be n the team. Sorry if this has been mentioned before why are trying to choose, but I had not read any at all and there were 11 pages lol.
Neil Pickup
Cricket Web Moderator
Jacques Kallis?Prince EWS said:
Prince EWS
Global Moderator
I still think Flitnoff is better, kallis'bowling has dropped heaps. That's in ODI.Neil Pickup said:
In tests it would pretty close between Kallis, Flintoff and Cairns (when fully fit and bowwling properly)
Rik
Cricketer Of The Year
Flintoff's strengths in the OD game (dead straight bowling with good bounce + aggressive big hitting) lead to his downfall in Test cricket. His bowling just doesn't have enough Variety and he gets himself out trying to play too many shots. You can't rate him anywhere near Cairns or Kallis in Tests. In OD Kallis edges it due to his batting. That ball that cleaned up McGrath a few days ago and 7 wickets at 27 in this series arn't the worst either.Prince EWS said: