***Official*** Pakistan in England

Were gonna get a pasting in the ODI's, basically

GeraintIsMyHero said:

eh?

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He implies that the Pakistani boys are going to hand are asses to us in the one day series.

I think he's saying that we are having a good time at the moment after finding our form in the test matches but when the ODI's come round again we are likely to get battered.

Edit: D'oh, beaten to it twice.

Sorry, wasnt a great idea to just drop that in while you were in the middle of discussing Panesar... I'll go now...

BoyBrumby said:

Not really. He's just saying Monty is the best of a limited bunch. Orthodox finger spinners are something of a dying breed at international level.

Although, interestingly, in today's Mirror Monty does say he's working on a wrong 'un of his own.

"I still have got a lot to learn. I am working on my version of the doosra - a ball which turns the other way - but we will just have to see what happens with it. As I gradually add things, it is one of my ambitions to be the best. It would be nice once day to be recognised as that."

Full article here: http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/crick...reat-spinner---it-s-my-destiny-name_page.html

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He didn't say orthodox finger spinners...

Anyway all I'm saying is that is effectively akin to saying "if you discount the best finger spinners in the world Monty is the best in the world..."

Anyway doesn't matter time will tell with Monty I suppose, I do believe he has the talent to get there.

No, he didn't; he was our most economical bowler in the drawn first Test, and bowled reasonably well in the first two generally. The second innings of the third Test was where he fell down a little bit, he seemed to lose control, but it is the only time he really has so far.

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Dude, his strike-rate was in excess of 140. If that isn't a spectecular failure then I don't know what is.

& he did manage to dismiss Tendulkar, Dravid, Kaif & Jaffer in his debut series. Not bad for a "spectacular failure".

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It's a cost/benefit issue. It's great that he was able to dismiss all these folks, but not if it took him 23 overs to take a single wicket.

Sanz said:

And this guy calls Indian fans as Terrace fans or something.

What next - Compare Monty's records against Pakistan with Bedi's ?

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The ellipsis suggests it's a bit tongue in cheek...

Monty the best bowler in the world? He's a young man at the start of his Test career who has shown a lot of potential. He's also now favourite for the BBC Sports Personality of the Year after the complete World Cup flop of our footballers. The only thing that can stop him winning is Andy Murray winning the US Open Tennis or the other Monty winning the final Golf Major of the year.

BoyBrumby said:

It's a fair point you make, but as the doosra is still in its infancy as a delivery (& of, say we say, potentially doubtful provenance anyway) I personally tend to view spinners who bowl one as the exceptions rather than the norm; hence unorthodox as opposed to orthodox.

&, regarding wrist-spinners, they're all unorthodox anyway, the whole bunch of them! () In career profiles left-arm finger spinners are sometimes noted as "orthodox" (take our own vic) to differentiate then from over-the-wrist southpaws.

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Fair enough - I see what you mean.
And yeah, the records differentiate between LB and LBG bowlers but I believe that to be merely for classification purposes as any leggie worth his salt should be able to bowl a googly. But I understand what you mean.

Left arm bowlers are a different matter entirely - there I believe the sole cause is because there have been so few of them in cricketing history. Something that strikes me as maybe a statistical anomaly - I mean I can hardly think of one, and certainly not any good ones.

In regards to the doosra, I agree completely. It is a dodgy delivery - I hope Panesar stays away from it (though he should learn it) in 1st class matches as its legality is a big question for bowlers constrained by normal biomechanics.

BoyBrumby said:

regarding wrist-spinners, they're all unorthodox anyway, the whole bunch of them! () In career profiles left-arm finger spinners are sometimes noted as "orthodox" (take our own vic)

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That's orthdox to you, pal.

JBH001 said:

Why does having a doosra make a finger spinner unorthodox?
Isn't that like saying that googly bowling leggies are unorthodox leg spinners?

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There are very few leg spinners that are incapable of bowling the googly in world cricket. the only one i can think of is warne. Kaneria, Kumble, Paul Adams, Macgill all bowl googlies regularly, and the googly is as much a part of a leg spinners armoury as the arm ball is for a finger spinner. Contrast that to the number of finger spinners that bowl a doosra and you'll find a very small number.

BoyBrumby said:

You'll have to trust me on this one; as a spinner Monty is several notches above Gilo.

& he did manage to dismiss Tendulkar, Dravid, Kaif & Jaffer in his debut series. Not bad for a "spectacular failure".

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I dont know how getting those 4 wickets is supposed to prove anything especially when you consider how many runs he conceded to get them. Nor did he bowl absolute brilliant balls to get them. I think most people who watched Monty bowl in India would easily say that he was nothing but a disastrous failure, and its credit to him that hes improved since then.
Oh and there was another bowler who dismissed Dravid, Tendulkar and Ganguly not once but twice in his debut series. He goes by the name of Adam Sanford.

tooextracool said:

There are very few leg spinners that are incapable of bowling the googly in world cricket. the only one i can think of is warne. Kaneria, Kumble

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How can you say that these blokes definately bowl the googly, they dont bowl it very often, but they bowl it.

tooextracool said:

I dont know how getting those 4 wickets is supposed to prove anything especially when you consider how many runs he conceded to get them. Nor did he bowl absolute brilliant balls to get them. I think most people who watched Monty bowl in India would easily say that he was nothing but a disastrous failure, and its credit to him that hes improved since then.
Oh and there was another bowler who dismissed Dravid, Tendulkar and Ganguly not once but twice in his debut series. He goes by the name of Adam Sanford.

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Granted he didn't pull up any trees, but a "disasterous failure" was what Udal was in Pakistan when he wasn't even trusted with blocking up an end because he was so expensive or what Blackwell was when he joined the one-test wonder club (hopefully permanently). Panesar was at least economical enough to be entrusted with more overs than the quicks.

& the wickets of the senior batsmen he got were two bowled, one LBW & a slip catch, so they can't have been too bad nuts given the batters' quality. With better luck Monty could've picked up the freebies Udal got in the 3rd test when brain-freeze had set in & the Indians were having a mow.

tooextracool said:

I think most people who watched Monty bowl in India would easily say that he was nothing but a disastrous failure, and its credit to him that hes improved since then..

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Oh come on mayn.

tooextracool said:

Oh and there was another bowler who dismissed Dravid, Tendulkar and Ganguly not once but twice in his debut series. He goes by the name of Adam Sanford.

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ye but he always looked trash & India were poor in 2002 to let him cause them so much problems then, Monty certainly hasn't so far in his career.

tooextracool said:

I think most people who watched Monty bowl in India would easily say that he was nothing but a disastrous failure, and its credit to him that hes improved since then.

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Far from a disastrous failure, I'd say he was a slight disappointment considering it was his debut series. He wasn't penetrative enough but he showed good control over line despite dropping a few short. He didn't really have any variety in India though and it's impressive how he's gotten some good wickets with the arm ball against Pakistan (Younis Khan).

BoyBrumby said:

Granted he didn't pull up any trees, but a "disasterous failure" was what Udal was in Pakistan when he wasn't even trusted with blocking up an end because he was so expensive or what Blackwell was when he joined the one-test wonder club (hopefully permanently). Panesar was at least economical enough to be entrusted with more overs than the quicks..

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Panesar was also blessed with more conducive wickets to spin bowling in India. Yes so he might still have bowled better than Udal and Blackwell did, but bowling marginally better than rubbish is you guessed it still rubbish. Mind you how many people went up about Shaun Udal in his first outing in Pakistan? A certain member on here even suggested that England should have replaced Giles with him a long time ago.

BoyBrumby said:

& the wickets of the senior batsmen he got were two bowled, one LBW & a slip catch, so they can't have been too bad nuts given the batters' quality. With better luck Monty could've picked up the freebies Udal got in the 3rd test when brain-freeze had set in & the Indians were having a mow.

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that may very well be the case, but one cannot discount his failures in both the 2nd and 3rd test when he had assistance from the pitch.

aussie said:

ye but he always looked trash & India were poor in 2002 to let him cause them so much problems then, Monty certainly hasn't so far in his career.

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hard to see how India have improved too much since 2002, especially when you consider that they drew 1-1 to a half fit side at home. 2002/03 was arguably Indias golden period, where they performed better abroad than they generally do.

adharcric said:

Far from a disastrous failure, I'd say he was a slight disappointment considering it was his debut series. He wasn't penetrative enough but he showed good control over line despite dropping a few short. He didn't really have any variety in India though and it's impressive how he's gotten some good wickets with the arm ball against Pakistan (Younis Khan).

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Not only did he not have variety, he was incapable of using drift, something that hes changed. Hes still not exactly a master of flight(despite whatever woolmer says) and tends to bowl very flat and quick and thats an area he needs to improve on.

tooextracool said:

Mind you how many people went up about Shaun Udal in his first outing in Pakistan? A certain member on here even suggested that England should have replaced Giles with him a long time ago.

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LOL! I don't know what Social was smoking that day, but I do recall him suggesting that after day 1 of the first test.