Playing selector: Lets pick the best test XI of different eras

aussie tragic said:

btw, I think I was talking about myself on not doing the pre-war XI as it does take a lot of time to dig up the players and get all the stats (as you found out above). Once we get into it, I might change my mind though

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If you do, I will help you out like this time.

aussie tragic said:

On Bradman, how about I run all the stats and then come up with a reasonable criteria that people can discuss, but please bare in mind that a current player can play 20 tests in 2-years, while 10 might be lucky during 1946-65. Therefore I think 12 tests, or 1000 runs or 50 wkts might be a good start.

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make it 15 tests. that will be 3 full series. if a player could not play that much we can assume we dont have enough to judge him (i think bradman played 14. so that is the hidden agenda!!!)

Speaking as a devotee of this process so far, but aware that I'm not the one who's been doing all the work (and that I won't have time to volunteer to do all the work), I'd certainly be interested in both the 1919-39 and 1894 to 1914 teams. With the 1894 to 1914 team, perhaps we should make it just "Pre-1914" as we're unlikely to then do a 1874 to 1894 team and there were some greats in that period who might deserve a mention...

The only problem with that pre-1914 team is that there were only three teams - England, Australia and South Africa.
Nevertheless, there are plenty of great cricketers from that era and it would be worthwhile IMO.

Matt79 said:

Speaking as a devotee of this process so far, but aware that I'm not the one who's been doing all the work (and that I won't have time to volunteer to do all the work), I'd certainly be interested in both the 1919-39 and 1894 to 1914 teams. With the 1894 to 1914 team, perhaps we should make it just "Pre-1914" as we're unlikely to then do a 1874 to 1894 team and there were some greats in that period who might deserve a mention...

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thanks for being a staunch supporter. glad to hear others are having good fun with this process too.

yes. pre WW I era can be allotted one team.

before that let us select the captain for the present team and then select the 46- 65 team. and then the post war team. the post war team should be a lot of fun even though we have limited nominees for each slot.

if the enthusiasm of you guys remains the same after that we can continue with pre war teams. i can do the initial filtering for aussie tragic and reduce his work load.

1946-65 World Test XI Batsmen nominees (Criteria: Batting ave > 40; Min 20 Inns at nominated position)

Openers

Australia: Bill Lawry, Bob Simpson, Arthur Morris
England: Colin Cowdrey, Len Hutton, Cyril Washbrook
New Zealand: Bert Sutcliffe
Pakistan: Hanif Mohammad
South Africa: Eddie Barlow, Jackie McGlew
West Indies: Conrad Hunte, Jeffrey Stollmeyer

# 3

Australia: Neil Harvey
England: Ken Barrington, Ted Dexter, Tom Graveney, Bill Edrich
Pakistan: Saeed Ahmed
West Indies: Rohan Kanhai, Clive Walcott, Frank Worrell

# 4

Australia: Lindsay Hassett, Norm O'Neill
England: Denis Compton, Colin Cowdrey, Peter May
India: Vijay Hazare
West Indies: Basil Butcher, Gary Sobers, Everton Weekes
South Africa: Graeme Pollock

# 5

Australia: Brian Booth
India: Polly Umrigar
South Africa: Colin Bland

Excluded for insufficient Innings during 1946-65 (Min. 25 required)

Don Bradman
Sid Barnes
John Edrich

Excluded for Batting Ave < 40.00

Peter Burge
Seymour Nurse

1946-65 World XI All Rounder nominees

Keith Miller (Aus)
Vinoo Mankad (Ind)
Trevor Goddard (SA)
Trevor Bailey (Eng) --- exemption given for batting ave of 29.74
Gary Sobers (WI) --- exemption given for bowling ave of 35.64

The following are excluded (they are not considerd real allrounders < 2 wkts per match)

Ken Mackay (Aus): 37T, 1507 runs @ 33.48 (0/13) HS 89 --- 50 wkts @ 34.42 (2/0), SR 115.8, Econ 1.78, BB 6-42
John Reid (NZ): 58T, 3428 runs @ 33.28 (6/22) HS 142 --- 85 wkts @ 33.35 (1/0), SR 90.8, Econ 2.20, BB 6-60
Ray Illingworth (Eng): 21T, 449 runs @ 20.40 (0/1) HS 50 --- 31 wkts @ 38.48 (3/0), SR 97.8, Econ 1.91, BB 6-29

Vijay Merchant? Didn't play many tests but one of the greatest batsmen, ever.

adharcric said:

Vijay Merchant? Didn't play many tests but one of the greatest batsmen, ever.

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He only played 4 tests during the period (and only 10 in total) so like Barry Richards in the 1966-85 Team, I'm afraid he doesn't meet the minimum test criteria

1946-65 Bowler Nominees (citeria: Pace bowling ave < 30; spinner bowling ave < 35)

Pace Bowlers

Australia: Ray Lindwall, Garth McKenzie, Keith Miller, Alan Davidson, Bill Johnston*
England: Fred Trueman Alec Bedser, Brian Statham
New Zealand: Frank Cameron
Pakistan: Fazal Mahmood
South Africa: Neil Adcock, Trevor Goddard, Peter Pollock
West Indies: Wes Hall

* Does anyone know more about Bill Johnston (Aus) as his player page states he was a Left Fast-Medium and a Slow left Arm so I've temporarily put him in both categories?

Spinners

Australia: Richie Benaud, Ian Johnson, Bill Johnston*
England: Dave Allen, Jim Laker, Tony Lock, Fred Titmus, Johnny Wardle
India: Subhash Gupte, Vinoo Mankad
South Africa: Hugh Tayfield
West Indies: Lance Gibbs, Sonny Ramadhin, Alf Valentine

Excluded

Prasanna (Ind): (only 2 tests)
Dick Motz (NZ): 19 tests, 54 wkts @ 33.01
Tony MacGibbon (NZ): 26 tests, 70 wkts @ 30.85

1946-65 Wicket-Keeper nominees (criteria > 2.3 dismissals per test)

Australia: Wally Grout, Don Tallon
England: Godfrey Evans, Jim Parks
South Africa: John Waite

Excluded: Frank Mooney (NZ): 14 tests, 30 dismissals (22/8) --- 343 runs @ 17.15 (0/0), HS 46

So for the 1946-65 World XI, we now just need to finalise the minimum tests played criteria, which effects the following if we were to leave it at the previous 20 tests:

Batsmen

Sid Barnes (Aus): 12 Tests, 17 Innings, 998 runs @ 66.53
Don Bradman (Aus): 15 Tests, 23 Innings, 1903 runs @ 105.72
Graeme Pollock (SA): 14 Tests, 25 Innings, 1202 runs @ 52.26

Bowlers

Peter Pollock (SA): 19 Tests, 89 wkts @ 23.34

Edited again: My vote is that we set 12 tests as the min. criteria, which will let all above in.

10 test's sounds like a good idea, considering that would be more of an acheivement back then to play 10 tests than it would be nowadays.

i would stick to 20 matches if these are the players who are going to miss out. in spite of the (supposed) low frequency of test cricket we still have enough players in the pool to select a kick *** test team. we should not lower the minimum requirement since it is just causing confusion.

bagapath said:

i would stick to 20 matches if these are the players who are going to miss out. in spite of the (supposed) low frequency of test cricket we still have enough players in the pool to select a kick *** test team. we should not lower the minimum requirement since it is just causing confusion.

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Not to mention because you don't want Bradman in the team

Whatever you decide, I think the Pollocks have had enough restrictions and with Peter Pollock playing 19 tests in this period, he should definitely be considered. If you really want Bradman out, then how about 25 Innings minimum which would let Graeme Pollock in also (Note: 20 Innings is a well known minimum requirement that is usually used for batsmen)

aussie tragic said:

Not to mention because you don't want Bradman in the team

Whatever you decide, I think the Pollocks have had enough restrictions and with Peter Pollock playing 19 tests in this period, he should definitely be considered. If you really want Bradman out, then how about 25 Innings minimum which would let Graeme Pollock in also (Note: 20 Innings is a well known minimum requirement that is usually used for batsmen)

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I feel guilty when you say "whatever you decide".

I believe we will select the pre war team also, seeing the enthusiasm of everyone. may be it can be done a few weeks after we select the post war XI. so we will keep bradman reserved for that.

and we can keep the requirement for the 45 - 65 team as follows.

batting > 25 innings and ave > 40
bowling > 75 wickets and ave for spinners < 35 for pacers < 30
we should include bailey and sobers in the all rounders poll since their deficiency is marginal

bagapath said:

I feel guilty when you say "whatever you decide".

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No need to, as you're the thread starter and therefore "Chairman of Selectors" someone has to make the final call

aussie tragic said:

Can I suggest a voting approach of first having each position shortlisted to 5 players, which are then voted on.

e.g. First Opener: Shortlist votes may result in Sewag, Grennidge, Haynes, Haydon, Gavskar. When one has been selected, then the other 4 are included in the shortlisting vote process for second Opener (or maybe even # 3 as well).

Just a thought...

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I dont like it.

Im a republican

bagapath said:

batting > 25 innings and ave > 40
bowling > 75 wickets and ave for spinners < 35 for pacers < 30
we should include bailey and sobers in the all rounders poll since their deficiency is marginal

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Need to change the criteria to 60 wkts if you're going with only 25 Inns for batsmen, otherwise it's not comparable (Only one NZ medium pacer is affected, however they need all the representation they can get )

aussie tragic said:

Umm, that post was from 3-months ago and we've selected two World XI's since then

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Join the colosseum

www.thecolosseum.co.nr

We have just banned this poof cricketTragic, in relation to you?

Excellent work guys as behold the 1966-85 World Test XI (Captain Poll now running)

1. Sunil Gavaskar (50.67)
2. Gordon Greenidge (49.14)
3. Viv Richards (54.02)
4. Greg Chappell (53.86)
5. Gary Sobers (59.10) (bowl: 32.62)
6. Ian Botham (36.13) (bowl: 26.37)
7. Alan Knott + (32.75)
8. Richard Hadlee (24.98) (bowl: 22.54)
9. Malcom Marshall (17.77) (bowl: 22.11)
10. Dennis Lillee (13.71) (bowl: 23.92)
11. Derek Underwood (11.56) (bowl: 25.83)

Also, the 1966-85 World Test 2nd XI is not bad either

1. Geoff Boycott (47.84)
2. Glenn Turner (44.64)
3. David Gower (45.63)
4. Javed Miandad (56.91)
5. Allan Border (51.62)
6. Imran Khan (31.22) (bowl: 22.43)
7. Rod Marsh + (26.51)
8. Joel Garner (12.95) (bowl: 21.78)
9. Michael Holding (12.88) (bowl: 23.23)
10. Jeff Thomson (12.81) (bowl: 28.00)
11. Bishen Bedi (8.98) (bowl: 28.71)