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English and Indian wicketkeeping debates

Salamuddin

International Debutant
Two questions:

1) I've heard that James Foster of Essex is likely to be handed the gloves fior England's first test of the summer ? What about Chris Read - why has been totally forgotten without getting a fair go ?

2) Who should don the gloves for India in the test matches in England this summer ? Dhoni or Karthik ?
 

Fiery

Banned
Two questions:

1) I've heard that James Foster of Essex is likely to be handed the gloves fior England's first test of the summer ? What about Chris Read - why has been totally forgotten without getting a fair go ?

2) Who should don the gloves for India in the test matches in England this summer ? Dhoni or Karthik ?
1) because Read's proven to be ave.

2) Dhoni - dynamic batsman
 
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Salamuddin

International Debutant
Personally, I reckon Read should be given the seven tests at home this summer and if he doesn't shape up, look at Foster for the SRi Lanka tour.
 

Fiery

Banned
Read never got the umpteen chances that Geraint got .......Read's quality as a keeper and I think better than Geraint with the bat
I know. It's a shame England haven't been able to produce a decent keeper since Alan Knott, Alec Stewart was a good player but it's been all downhill since then
 

Perm

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
I don't see what the big deal with the Indian wicket keeping issue is, surely there is only the one logical choice and that is Mahendra Singh Dhoni. I think that almost everyone on CW will agree his ability with the gloves has come on a long way since he first started playing and is now fairly consistent and able behind the stumps. With the willow he has been pretty good aswell, so there should be no reason to be toying with ideas of dropping him in favour of Karthik. Don't even get me started on why Karthik is playing as a pure batsman.
 

Salamuddin

International Debutant
I don't see what the big deal with the Indian wicket keeping issue is, surely there is only the one logical choice and that is Mahendra Singh Dhoni. I think that almost everyone on CW will agree his ability with the gloves has come on a long way since he first started playing and is now fairly consistent and able behind the stumps. With the willow he has been pretty good aswell, so there should be no reason to be toying with ideas of dropping him in favour of Karthik. Don't even get me started on why Karthik is playing as a pure batsman.
Dhoni has improved considerably as a keeper but its pretty obvious every team wants a keeper that can bat well in addition.

Dhoni's a good ODI batsman but he's had considerably less success batting wise in tests - so, again is Karthik the better test match option ? I think its a perfectly reasonable question.
 

Goughy

Hall of Fame Member
Read never got the umpteen chances that Geraint got .......Read's quality as a keeper and I think better than Geraint with the bat
The point being, is that neither are good enough. No point reinforcing failure.

Other options must be looked at and these guys jettisoned.

Have to remember that Jack Russell was twice the batsman that either of these guys are (as well as being a superior keeper) and he was dropped due to lack of batting.

To continue with Read or Jones is to waste more time and resources of projects doomed to fail.

Best bet is strike a line through the Jones/Read era and forge ahead.
 

Perm

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Dhoni has improved considerably as a keeper but its pretty obvious every team wants a keeper that can bat well in addition.

Dhoni's a good ODI batsman but he's had considerably less success batting wise in tests - so, again is Karthik the better test match option ? I think its a perfectly reasonable question.
Karthik is definitely a good shout for the test side.
But what has Karthik done to deserve a place in the Test side ahead of Dhoni? From my point of view he has been fairly average in the ODI's he has played so far while Dhoni has the advantage of being the incumbent keeper for the limited overs game. I'm not a big fan of having different wicket keepers for the different formats, unless the guy playing Test's can't strike the ball well enough for ODI's or the ODI guy can't play a patient innings in a Test.

In my eyes Dhoni has matured over the last while or so and played quite well in South Africa without getting a big score, certainly his form hasn't been poor enough to be dropped and Karthik hardly has a mountain of runs behind him.
 

Salamuddin

International Debutant
The point being, is that neither are good enough. No point reinforcing failure.

Other options must be looked at and these guys jettisoned.

Have to remember that Jack Russell was twice the batsman that either of these guys are (as well as being a superior keeper) and he was dropped due to lack of batting.

To continue with Read or Jones is to waste more time and resources of projects doomed to fail.

Best bet is strike a line through the Jones/Read period and forge ahead.

Sorry Goughy I disagree wrt Read. The guy batted reasonabaly well against Pakistan and only got two tests against Australia. He was not given an extended run to prove himself -- that is what I think The Engand selectors should give him - if he is not good enough after 7 tests against WI and India at home, then look at someone else by all means.
 
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Goughy

Hall of Fame Member
Sorry Goughy I disagree wrt Read. The guy batted reasonabaly well against Pakistan and only got two tests against Australia. He was not given an extended run to prove himself -- that is what I think The Engand selectors should give him - if he is enough good enough after 7 tests against WI and India at home, then look at someone else by all means.
Fair enough.

However, if he plays this in English summer, I will guarantee his failure. Ive seen easily enough to know he isnt good enough and that wasting more time is folly.

Also a player as weak as Read with the bat hurts team balance and compostition

However, for Englands sake, I hope you are right and I am wrong.
 

Salamuddin

International Debutant
Fair enough.

However, if he plays this in English summer, I will guarantee his failure. Ive seen easily enough to know he isnt good enough and that wasting more time is folly.

Also a player as weak as Read with the bat hurts team balance and compostition

However, for Englands sake, I hope you are right and I am wrong.
Goughy, Are you a Level 2 coach or something ?

Who do you want to see don the gloves ? Foster, Pothas, Davies or someone else ?
 

adharcric

International Coach
But what has Karthik done to deserve a place in the Test side ahead of Dhoni? From my point of view he has been fairly average in the ODI's he has played so far while Dhoni has the advantage of being the incumbent keeper for the limited overs game. I'm not a big fan of having different wicket keepers for the different formats, unless the guy playing Test's can't strike the ball well enough for ODI's or the ODI guy can't play a patient innings in a Test.

In my eyes Dhoni has matured over the last while or so and played quite well in South Africa without getting a big score, certainly his form hasn't been poor enough to be dropped and Karthik hardly has a mountain of runs behind him.
Dhoni has certainly improved considerably in test cricket, but Karthik is better behind the stumps and batted very well in his limited opportunities in South Africa. That said, Dhoni should probably get the 1st test in England.
 

Perm

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
In the one Test match he did play he performed very creditibly, especially opening the batting in the first innings which we all know is an issue for Indian cricket. Dhoni didn't do so well in the 1st Test but he batted very well at Kingsmead, formed the important partnership with Sreesanth in the 1st innings and in the 2nd he batted well with the tail chasing an impossible target by the time he got to the crease. After 15 Test matches he averages 30.70 aswell as taking 40 catches and 9 stumpings, it's a good start to his career and I would certainly have him in my side over Dinesh Karthik at the moment.
 

Jono

Virat Kohli (c)
I feel much more confident when watching India play test cricket that Karthik is coming in at 7 compared to Dhoni. The issue with Dhoni is he'll generally throw it away in the 30s or 40s, even if he has played extremely sensibly until then. He's maturing in ODI cricket a hell of a lot, he's one of the best in the world hands down in that format, but in test cricket, I think Karthik is the better option. Better with the gloves, and more solid with the bat, which is what the Indian batting line-up will need in England.

Mind you, its not such a big issue whereby if Dhoni is selected ahead of Karthik I'd be upset, its a 50/50 atm, which is a good thing in a way that both have good arguments for their inclusion, but I'd like a clear #1 by the time they come to Australia.

One concern with Karthik is his domestic record. Why are his first class (and list A for that matter) stats so ordinary? Yes I know the logical answer would be because he is ordinary, but he's looked the goods at int'l level, at least when wearing the whites in test cricket. Can't understand why his record would be that poor.
 
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Arjun

Cricketer Of The Year
England: Really, really good question. You've got a batsman who's wicketkeeping and making a hash of it, and then falls away as a batsman. The other option is a wicketkeeper, a genuine one, who's dropped a little too soon because he's short of runs and he doesn't dive much, and dropped one catch. Then there's a third part, another batsman, well over 30, picked only for the World Cup. Since there's nobody good enough for that role in England, they should pick the single best wicketkeeper, and let Collingwood or Dalrymple do a more-than-occassional job with the ball.

India: Just too obvious. It's Dhoni all along. Even in Test matches, he's capable of playing some good innings. He's coming in a little too high, and at six, he has to bat like a proper batsman, which is a tough ask for a wicketkeeper. He's as good as any batsman in the Test side after Tendulkar, Dravid, Laxman, Ganguly and Sehwag. He's got more power. And a second skill. Karthik can't match him; he can't bat at all, if current form is anything to go by. You can't expect a 'sensible innings' from him all the time, and the striking power is missing. He's good enough as a specialist wicketkeeper, but no good as a wicketkeeping all-roudner. That said, they're both significantly better than Parthiv Patel and Rahul Dravid, with whom the selectors were stuck in the early 2000's.
 

Pup Clarke

Cricketer Of The Year
England:
India: . , He's got more power. And a second skill. Karthik can't match him; he can't bat at all, if current form is anything to go by. You can't expect a 'sensible innings' from him all the time, and the striking power is missing. wicketkeeper, QUOTE]

What has "power" got to do with anything when judging the best batsmen especially in test cricket?.
 

Neil Pickup

Cricket Web Moderator
Goughy, Are you a Level 2 coach or something ?

Who do you want to see don the gloves ? Foster, Pothas, Davies or someone else ?
Don't get him started on coaching awards!

Anyway, I am a L2 - and I'm in complete agreement; Read's footwork - weight transfer - is much, too weak, indecisive and, for want of a better phrase - like a lost child, to succeed on a regular basis in Test cricket. This is a man who went into bat after Gareth Batty, remember.
 

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