kingkallis
International Coach
KP, only slightly
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Graham Thorpe vs Kevin Pietersen
- Thread starter trundler
- Start date
BoyBrumby
Englishman
Thorpey is probably my favourite England cricketer, so I'm unashamedly biased.
Pietersen had the higher ceiling, I don't think too many would demur from that, but Thorpe wasn't just a Collingwoodesque grinder (which sounds like the worst niche gay dating app ever), he really could play too.
As Cozza suggests earlier, there was a completely false dichotomy between them at the start of the 2005 Ashes and, although obviously, yay we won, it's pretty hard to imagine Graham wouldn't have contributed more to the cause than Ding Dong Bell in doing so. I've still haven't forgiven Fletcher for that call and will never be convinced he didn't crap the bed.
I'll just float this out: if Thorpe had been born ten years later and surrounded by a better class of batting conferes there's a very strong case this career would've been even more impressive than it was as he'd have had more shoulders to help carry that burden.
However if KP had been born ten years earlier and had to endure the schissershow that was 90s English cricket, given his temperament and fondness for a flounce, could one really imagine he'd have had the career he did with less sympathetic handling?
I mean, Thorpe once cried off a tour because his missus was diddling her tennis coach and he was decried by the ever understanding gentlemen (it's invariably gentlemen) of the fourth estate as a softmember. If a ****old's horns and the death throes of a marriage weren't considered reasonable grounds, KP's (comparatively) piddling concerns would've been laughed out of Fleet Street.
It wasn't all peeled grapes and pedicures in Pietersen's time, but he was generally treated with a lot more understanding than Thorpey was.
Pietersen had the higher ceiling, I don't think too many would demur from that, but Thorpe wasn't just a Collingwoodesque grinder (which sounds like the worst niche gay dating app ever), he really could play too.
As Cozza suggests earlier, there was a completely false dichotomy between them at the start of the 2005 Ashes and, although obviously, yay we won, it's pretty hard to imagine Graham wouldn't have contributed more to the cause than Ding Dong Bell in doing so. I've still haven't forgiven Fletcher for that call and will never be convinced he didn't crap the bed.
I'll just float this out: if Thorpe had been born ten years later and surrounded by a better class of batting conferes there's a very strong case this career would've been even more impressive than it was as he'd have had more shoulders to help carry that burden.
However if KP had been born ten years earlier and had to endure the schissershow that was 90s English cricket, given his temperament and fondness for a flounce, could one really imagine he'd have had the career he did with less sympathetic handling?
I mean, Thorpe once cried off a tour because his missus was diddling her tennis coach and he was decried by the ever understanding gentlemen (it's invariably gentlemen) of the fourth estate as a softmember. If a ****old's horns and the death throes of a marriage weren't considered reasonable grounds, KP's (comparatively) piddling concerns would've been laughed out of Fleet Street.
It wasn't all peeled grapes and pedicures in Pietersen's time, but he was generally treated with a lot more understanding than Thorpey was.
honestbharani
Whatever it takes!!!
KP by a slender margin. Thorpe is very under rated as a batsman, was amazing and fun to watch.
Cook.
_00_deathscar
International Regular
Now there's a player who eeked out every last drop from all his (relatively limited) talent.
fredfertang
Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
I think I've reached the stage with KP where I cba to think ill of him any more - beginning to come round to the thought that he's as good an England batsman as I've ever seen
Uppercut
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He's a bit of a cricketing Morrissey, having been a high-profile Fathers for Justice member who once got drunk and accidentally promised Nigel Farage he'd vote for UKIP, so this fits.
It's an interesting question, in that I instinctively recoil at the idea of Thorpe being better than KP, but when I think about it it becomes hard to objectively argue that they weren't at least equally good. As you say, Thorpe was dealt a nightmarish hand playing in such a thin batting lineup in that era and I really can't imagine KP would have done a better job of it.
Thorpe being better than KP would be a damning indictment of the sport, but then the fact that Chanderpaul was better than KP already pretty much proves that cricket is ****.
BoyBrumby
Englishman
It might just be coincidence, but there looks like distinct pre and post captaincy eras to Root's career.
OverratedSanity
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Averages 42 as captain compared to 53 prior. Apart from his first series as captain vs SA, he's been pretty consistently underwhelming. It might still be a coincidence though, maybe he was overperfoming compared to his actual ability in his first few years, no real way to know.
BoyBrumby
Englishman
Yeah, quite. I'd guess 42 is higher than any other Englishman with a reasonable sample size for the same period (with the possible exceptions of Cook or Stokes), but no-one mentions him in the same bracket as Kohli, Smith or Williamson any more.
MW1304
Cricketer Of The Year
I really don't think he was, considering how often he would get to 50-80 looking utterly serene, then give his wicket away. This is when he was averaging in the 50s.
If he had that mental ruthlessness, he'd be a legend. The captaincy has definitely been a factor sure, but probably a bunch of different pressures have contributed to him not quite reaching his potential.
Spark
Global Moderator
It's also his game though. He gets such a large proportion of his runs square or even behind square offside of the wicket with little nudges and dabs (it's what makes him such an exceptional but underrated ODI stalwart) but those always bring the outside edge into play.
SillyCowCorner1
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The only innings of note that I can recall from Thorpe was his dodgy 100 against us some time in the early 00's. KP's knocks in Ashes 05 got me sold though. Those iconic bats with the worm on the back lol.
wpdavid
Hall of Fame Member
I don't know about dodgy, but I remember his 100 holding our innings together in either the 2nd or 3rd test on the 2004 series in the Caribbean to set up the win. Probably after the top order had been removed cheaply. He played some great knocks in the 1990s, although for a while he had an annoying tendency to look great for about 70 before getting out. Nearer your time, he held the record for the fastest test 200 for about 24 hours. He could battle it out when needed, but he wasn't a blocker by any means.
ImpatientLime
International Regular
this one?
Full Scorecard of West Indies vs England 3rd Test 2003/04 - Score Report | ESPNcricinfo.com
Complete Scorecard of West Indies vs England 3rd Test 2003/04, England tour of West Indies only on ESPNcricinfo.com. Find the complete scorecard of West Indies vs England 3rd Test Online
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that was a top top knock on a tough pitch with his team comically falling down around him. extended highlights are over on the tubes.
SillyCowCorner1
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That's the one...the next best score was 17. And he made 119*...and then I remember that Hoggard hattrick...oh what a series that was.this one?
Full Scorecard of West Indies vs England 3rd Test 2003/04 - Score Report | ESPNcricinfo.com
Complete Scorecard of West Indies vs England 3rd Test 2003/04, England tour of West Indies only on ESPNcricinfo.com. Find the complete scorecard of West Indies vs England 3rd Test Online
that was a top top knock on a tough pitch with his team comically falling down around him. extended highlights are over on the tubes.