The Least 'National' World Cup Winning Team

[Goughy]

Don't need to live in a country to have its passport though. Not saying this is entirely a new issue but I can't think of any other time when so many players have been in or around the team at the same time.

I think we have found 7 in an England team previously (6 for sure)

 

[Athlai]

Were any 4 of Lamb, Smith, Hick, Caddick, McCague, Phil DeFreitas, Gladstone Small and Devon Malcolm ever in the team at the same time? No, you don't need to live in a country to have its passport, but if you have no relation to said country then you do need to live there in order to earn a passport. I really don't get why you think England have done something wrong here. Morgan - okay, I can see the eligibility rules screw Ireland over, but really there's nothing new in this.

Having a relationship with a country doesn't make you a product of their cricket system and I think that is the issue I have with it.

 

[Athlai]

I think we have found 7 in an England team previously (6 for sure)

Haha wow would be pretty interested to see that team.

 

[Goughy]

Interesting to see Alan Mullally, Martin McCague and Craig White mentioned in this thread as, IIRC, they all qualified for England by birth

 

[HeathDavisSpeed]

I dont know the background of the NZ Saffies so I could be wrong but I would guess they were not NZ citizens when they lived in SA.

Lumb, KP and Kieswetter were all British citizens in SA. Richard Lumb (Michaels father) was a longtime Yorkshire player and both Lumb and Kieswetter never played FC cricket in SA.

This isnt even an issue of mercenaries moving to a country for a better life (which I wouldnt have that much of an issue with either) but KP, Lumb and Kieswetter were/are British citizens exercising their right to work in their country of citizenship.

Quite right. New Zealand are looking more like they're taking advantage of flights of fancy and a desire to play international cricket. We could see Elliot, Watling, Myburgh, van Wyk and Wagner all playing for NZ and I think the only one who held a Kiwi passport is Watling. People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

 

[HeathDavisSpeed]

Interesting to see Alan Mullally, Martin McCague and Craig White mentioned in this thread as, IIRC, they all qualified for England by birth

They are all examples used by the England detractors in this sense though. How's about Gavin Hamilton - ruthlessly poached from Scotland?????

 

[Prince EWS]

Expecting you to turn out for the English team in the next WC now.

Swanneh > me.

And funnily enough, I'd still actually have to do my residency even though I have a passport.

 

[Athlai]

Quite right. New Zealand are looking more like they're taking advantage of flights of fancy and a desire to play international cricket. We could see Elliot, Watling, Myburgh, van Wyk and Wagner all playing for NZ and I think the only one who held a Kiwi passport is Watling. People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

I'm using the world cup winning team as an example, I have an issue with this in NZ cricket as well.

 

[Goughy]

Haha wow would be pretty interested to see that team.

7 foreign born but a number are certainly of British stock

2nd Test: New Zealand v England at Auckland, Jan 30-Feb 3, 1992 | Cricket Scorecard | Cricinfo.com

 

[HeathDavisSpeed]

7 foreign born but a number are certainly of British stock

2nd Test: New Zealand v England at Auckland, Jan 30-Feb 3, 1992 | Cricket Scorecard | Cricinfo.com

Haha. Good old Kenyan Derek Pringle.

 

[HeathDavisSpeed]

An interesting test to see how many of these guys were "passports of convienience" would be to see whether they "went home" after retiring:

e.g. Tony Greig - chipped off overseas ASAP
Robin Smith - stayed with Hampshire, lives down there, helps run day to day operations, helped set up Chase cricket equipment
Chris Lewis - Firmly in Blighty at Her Majesty's Pleasure etc. etc.

How many off them return from whence they came? If they stick around in the UK, were they really playing for England out of convienience?

 

[Goughy]

They are all examples used by the England detractors in this sense though. How's about Gavin Hamilton - ruthlessly poached from Scotland?????

He was. My point about White et al being British born and playing for England despite growing up overseas is that people seldom mention Gordon Greenidge and WI 'poaching' him after he leant the game in England. Myself, Ive no issue with any of it.

EDIT- The only one that annoys me a little is Amjad Khan but Ill get over it.

 

[Athlai]

An interesting test to see how many of these guys were "passports of convienience" would be to see whether they "went home" after retiring:

e.g. Tony Greig - chipped off overseas ASAP
Robin Smith - stayed with Hampshire, lives down there, helps run day to day operations, helped set up Chase cricket equipment
Chris Lewis - Firmly in Blighty at Her Majesty's Pleasure etc. etc.

How many off them return from whence they came? If they stick around in the UK, were they really playing for England out of convienience?

Yeah tbh moreso than players who weren't 'developed' by the country they play internationally for is the players who only live in that country and then move immediately back afterward.

 

[HeathDavisSpeed]

He was. My point about White et al being British born and playing for England despite growing up overseas is that people seldom mention Gordon Greenidge and WI 'poaching' him after he leant the game in England. Myself, Ive no issue with any of it.

EDIT- The only one that annoys me a little is Amjad Khan but Ill get over it.

Sorry Goughy, this is an England only problem.

 

[Goughy]

Regarding moving back to a country, I was thinking on a seperate but related point about what players do when they retire and where they settle.

Just looking through some very old WI cricket profiles and a number died in the UK. Obviously Larwood, amongst others, moved to Aus, Wally Hammond etc to SA. So I guess my question is, which country do the most players relocate to after retirement? My thought being use place of death being different to country represented.

 

[BoyBrumby]

Outsourcing is a good thing I can tell u that

Kidding. I've no issues with players who didn't get a chance to make it big in their home country. And decided to emigrate, did the hard yards in the county system, satisfied the criteria to become a full national (playing for 3 years?), and then made his appearance. This applies to KP, etc etc.

But what I have issues is when a player like Morgan who for 20 years of his life played cricket in Ireland suddenly starts playing for England, utilising the loophole that an Associate player need not have the 3 years cooling period. this is quite ridiculous because then Ireland is reduced to just being a talent pool for England, for whom they don't have to spend on (Ireland receives funding from the ICC being Associate nation), and this practise virtually eliminates any chance of Ireland ever becoming a full member, as it's best talent is always employed by England.

This is something ICC must look at.

Far from being a "loophole" it's something the associate nations actually lobbied for. If talented assoicate players weren't allowed to switich to test nations immediately once selected they'd have to make themselves unavailable for the 4 year qualification period.

I don't necessarily feel comfortable we're taking the cream of associate nations (and, in the cases of Joyce and Amjad Khan, quickly disgarding them too) but they are playing in our domestic competition as non-overseas players, but if we were to arbitrarily say we weren't going to pick them based on mildly dodgy conceptions of who is or isn't a "proper" national we'd be doubly hamstringing ourselves. Not only would these players be unavailable, but they're also filling a place that would otherwise be occupied by a "real" pom, however one wishes to define that.

 

[four_or_six]

Doesn't hollow the victory even the slightest amount. Maybe it would if we stole completely developed players from someone else, but we haven't. Maybe only Morgan, but I'm not against allowing players from associate countries to have a shot at the big-time. Though I do think the re-qualification for Ireland needs to be looked at.

Lumb is completely irrelevant imo, massive ties to the UK, KP wouldn't be in any way the player he is for SA that he is for us and he spent ages qualifying, Kieswetter made his decision as a young man and has also put in the hard yards to qualify.

 

[Athlai]

Doesn't hollow the victory even the slightest amount. Maybe it would if we stole completely developed players from someone else, but we haven't. Maybe only Morgan, but I'm not against allowing players from associate countries to have a shot at the big-time. Though I do think the re-qualification for Ireland needs to be looked at.

That one player was arguably the most valuable English player throughout.

 

[four_or_six]

That one player was arguably the most valuable English player throughout.

One of. Like I said, I'm not in any way against Associate players playing for test teams, I think it's excellent that the very best can play at the top level. The only issue in my mind is the length of the re-qualification for Ireland, it seems too long.

 

[vic_orthdox]

Yeah, the only one that slightly rankles with me is Morgan, more because of what has happened to Ed Joyce; that Joyce has been taken off Ireland's books basically now until he is a cricketing pensioner is really unfortunate and something should be done about that sort of situation.

Thus, my issue is with the system, and not with England.