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WORLD CUP VICTORS - Australia

Top_Cat

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I dunno guys, I disagree. Although Tendulkar has a very healthy average and devastates attacks frequently, in the REALLY big matches, he's been found wanting in the past (Sunday's final,WC super sixes match against Aust in 1999) and hasn't ben able to produce the gritty innings his team needs to save matches, except on a few occasions.

I think Sehwag has a little more of that 'mongrel' about him and in tight situations, could be a match-winner with an ugly (but quick) innings. Sure Sachin can play shots like no-one else and has a great technique but I would reckon Sehwag is just that little bit tougher. I could imagine Sehwag surviving a short-pitched bowling barrage and eventually winning out but Sachin, I have slight doubts about.

That innings personally impressed me MUCH more than the runs he scored. He didn't back down a bit when Brett Lee was bouncing the bejeezus out of him and looked pretty steely. Sure he didn't attempt the hook but he didn't try to make something out of nothing either and just accepted that the pull and hook shots would have to be shelved that day. He sure pumelled anything else dished up to him!
 

Top_Cat

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So I guess what I'm saying is that I think Sehwag will ultimately win more matches off his own bat than Sachin as his career progresses.
 

aussie_beater

State Vice-Captain
Top_Cat said:
I dunno guys, I disagree. Although Tendulkar has a very healthy average and devastates attacks frequently, in the REALLY big matches, he's been found wanting in the past (Sunday's final,WC super sixes match against Aust in 1999) and hasn't ben able to produce the gritty innings his team needs to save matches, except on a few occasions.
I would dispute that as being a perception.Yes Sachin has failed in some of the high profile matches played by India but if you take a look at his stats for critical ODI matches(semi-finals,finals etc.) then you will see that he averages 47.36 in those matches compared to his career average of 44.43.

That proves that he is a big match player, but sometimes in matches like the one yesterday, it just becomes a matter of luck given his disposition as an attacking player and the weight of expectations riding behind him. Look at the innings that he played against Pakistan.For an Indian player that match had a pressure nearly equal to what they had for the world cup final and the pressure on Sachin was a few PSIs more and he came up with that incredible innings.

Yes it can be argued that he has not completed the task in some of the occasions, which is different from saying that he underperforms in critical matches.

Over the last decade the expectations of Sachin taking us to victory single-handedly has risen and not diminished with the sort of miracles expected for which yesterday was a prime example, where a lot of people in India were thinking about Sachin scoring a double hundred to carry India through.That's a tall ask but when he fails this argument of him failing to deliver at critical times comes up.

One match which rankles even today in that list of matches for which he is criticised as not being a mtach winner is the India-Pak test match at Madras in 1999.That innings of his(136) could have been rated as one of the best test match innings played by an Indian, but fans including me don't even want to talk about it. His failure to perform in a few of the most high profile matches has earned him that criticism which is unfair in my opinion and the stats surely show a distinctly different picture.
 

Top_Cat

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Look at the innings that he played against Pakistan.For an Indian player that match had a pressure nearly equal to what they had for the world cup final and the pressure on Sachin was a few PSIs more and he came up with that incredible innings.
I agree. That innings was something really special. Under severe pressure against a strong bowling attack and still made it look easy. I'd be surprised if he sweated at all. :)

Yes it can be argued that he has not completed the task in some of the occasions, which is different from saying that he underperforms in critical matches.
True. I'm not really saying that he underperforms all the time but I'm just saying that in really critical matches such as the final (where, given, they couldn't win) or the WC in 1999, he wasn't able to even contribute. And there have been a few other occasions where he hasn't contributed in REALLY big matches. I mean, he may have won countless mini-finals but when it came down to winning or losing the WC, he didn't figure highly in it.

Mind you, considering the pressure he's on to not just contribute but to win the games for India, I guess it's to be expected he won't do it every time. Maybe his immense talent is making me think he should be doing it more often when in reality, under the circumstances, no-one could.

One match which rankles even today in that list of matches for which he is criticised as not being a mtach winner is the India-Pak test match at Madras in 1999.That innings of his(136) could have been rated as one of the best test match innings played by an Indian, but fans including me don't even want to talk about it.
True. Again, I guess with his obviously immense talent, it's hard for people to accept that sometimes, he is mortal. :)

Still, Sachin is susceptible to really aggressive pace bowling sometimes whereas I think Sehwag has a bit more of the grittiness about him. Hey look, in Bradman's day there were two players who were considered as talented as each other and that was Archie Jackson and Bradman. Even Bradman was considered more vulnerable to the short stuff than Jackson, yet Bradman was considered the better all-round player.
 
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royGilchrist

State 12th Man
funny you mention that 99 madras test AB, becasue whenever this debate about sachin being not good in big matches comes up, thats exacly what I think about, and I think sunny kept saying that day, that Sachin must finish this.

This is how I think about it.... If we compare attributes of of the truly great batting talents of this generation, here is roughly the comparison (nothing comprehensive, and there can be many more categories, but I am just trying to make my point):

- pure talent - this is crap and personally I dont think there is nay thing such as pure talent
- batting against quality fast bowling - generally all are good, but some obviously stand out like ponting, sunny, viv, and I think Miandad was the most suspect
- batting against quality spin bowling - again generally all are good, but most indians and pakistanis stand out, including sachin obviously
- facing great adversity - lara stands out here, as does bevan in ODI, and sachin is not lacking this, but he just doesnt stand out in this category, laxman not a great yet, but he does stand out here, and so does Miandad. Pure conjecture, but if Laxman was playing in this match WC final, I would not have been surprised if he made a century.
- rare bad patches - sachin stands out in this one I think, and lara is the one lacking in this.

Now explaining the adversity category. There are two types, one is in a duel with a particular bowler or a hostile corwd or somthing like that, and actually sachin is pretty good in this, one of the best, one small incident that I remember, in his first series I think, batting against Waqar, he got hit on the nose, and there was even blood, but then he went on to thrahs waqar all over the place later that afternoon. I think if anyone did not know before they knew then that a star was just born. But the other type is in a amtch situation, where your team is looking at you to take them through from a very difficult situation and win (or draw) the match for your team single-handedly. Sachin is lacking in this, unlike Lara and Miandad. The innings against Pak in this WC was brilliant, but he should have more of these considering his stature. For example Miandad, in tough situations, somehow by sheer force of will Miandad would always hang around, and just refuse to lose his wicket. Example, WC96 quarter final versus India, Pakistan had all but lost the match, werent enough wickets and too many runs, and Miandad was way past his prime. Still he hung around even though his timings was so completely off, and even his run out, he just tried his best, and you could see the anguish on his face waiting for the decision of the third ump even though he knew he was well short.

As for Sachin, for example, in such brilliant form, he should have shown more defiance in the final (even though it was a lost cause). Still he is not unusally bad in this category ofcourse, he just doesnt stand out, the way he does in other categories.

I am not sure if Im sounding like a dork, hopefully what I was trying to say came through.

One thing thats off topic, but I think since everyone seems to be so warm to the idea of having all thes teams and extended WC, wont it be a good idea, since its the most important competition in the world of cricket, why not have WC SF and finals best of three. A few more days, but we get a more authentic winner, as generally even with the crappy system, atleast three of the top temas in the tourney reach the last four.
 

warrioryohannan

U19 Cricketer
aussie_beater said:
I would dispute that as being a perception.Yes Sachin has failed in some of the high profile matches played by India but if you take a look at his stats for critical ODI matches(semi-finals,finals etc.) then you will see that he averages 47.36 in those matches compared to his career average of 44.43.

[/QUOTE


Actually Sachin has fared poorly in 80 percent of the big matches (semis and Final) which India has played over the course of last 4 years. His average in big matches in the mentioned period has been very poor, i will come up with stats later on.
 

V Reddy

International Debutant
I think his avg. is up in the finals b'coz he got 1 not out century against Kenya in the tri series which involved Ind-Ban-Ken. Then i think he got two centuries against Zim, one in Sharjah and one in India and i think one of them was not out.
 

marc71178

Eyes not spreadsheets
royGilchrist said:

One thing thats off topic, but I think since everyone seems to be so warm to the idea of having all thes teams and extended WC, wont it be a good idea, since its the most important competition in the world of cricket, why not have WC SF and finals best of three. A few more days, but we get a more authentic winner, as generally even with the crappy system, atleast three of the top temas in the tourney reach the last four.
Interesting idea, but I dispute the fact that SL were one of the top teams in the Tournament - they were more than a little fortunate to get out of their group!
 

anzac

International Debutant
congradulations to Australia for their fine performance & victory.

Ponting would have to be v happy re his form & captaincy.

I'm sorry to say that India was let down by their seamers, which is what I was afraid of in some earlier threads.....

although having said that the Aussie bowlers were not without fault, just that they got it right more often thatn the Indians....

:)
 

aussie_beater

State Vice-Captain
warrioryohannan said:
Actually Sachin has fared poorly in 80 percent of the big matches (semis and Final) which India has played over the course of last 4 years. His average in big matches in the mentioned period has been very poor, i will come up with stats later on. [/B]
I was looking at it from Sachin's complete career perspective.You are quite right in that in the last four years he has performed well below his career average in knockout type matches, but then his international career is now in its 14th year :O

His average in the last four years in such matches comes to 27.46. But one thing is that in the last four-five years he became a more sedate player, and in this world cup he looked like he is back to playing like he used to do in a carefree attitude, taking apart bowling attacks.
 

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